Interview with Donata Wenders
SHOTS magazine 2003
Donata Wenders has an instinctive understanding of the abundant possibilities
of using her camera as a tool to observe and reveal the essence of
her subjects. Accordingly, her photographs represent a personal language,
one in which she is able to visually express an internal longing.
Whether shooting portraits of artists engaged in their work, seemingly
unaware of her camera's gaze, or documenting the people and sets on
husband (director Wim Wenders') films-she explores that which is below
the surface, reaching for deeper meaning and understanding. Wenders'
resulting black and white images are moody and atmospheric, characterized
her remarkable use of light, shadow and reflection.
Born and raised in Berlin, Wenders' was drawn to photography, by way
of a longtime interest in filmmaking. Captivated by the cinema, Wenders
began learning the art of filmmaking as a teen, continuing by studying
filmmaking in college. She went on to work on a number of films-primarily
in cinematography. One of the jobs that she landed along the way was
as a camera assistant on the 1993 Wim Wenders' movie, Faraway, So
Close! A romance between her and Wim followed the completion of the
film and the two later married, beginning a partnership that encourages
creative and artistic dialogue and growth.
Wenders decided to devote the majority of her creative attention to
photography, sometime after shooting documentary photographs on the
set of Wim Wenders and Michelangelo Antonioni's collaborative film,
Beyond the Clouds, in 1995. In the short amount of time since, Wenders
has built an astounding and beautiful body of work, has published
several books (co-authored with Wim), including The Heart Is A Sleeping
Beauty and Buena Vista Social Club, and is represented by Ariel Meyerowitz
Gallery in New York (www.arielmeyerowitzgallery.com) and Galleria
Alessandra Bonomo in Rome.
RUSSELL JOSLIN: What is your background in art?
DONATA WENDERS: [I was] raised in
Berlin during the Seventies and Eighties; It was a tradition to visit
The National Gallery, Akademie der Künste (Academy of the Arts)
or another museum on Sundays, instead of going to church. So I was
raised with a wide range of the traditional arts, Pop Art, modern
sculpture and painting.
During the years, my favorite artists changed as my life changed.
To name a few of them: Rodin, Giacometti, Miro, Brancusi, Beuys, Klee,
Balthus and Vermeer. In photography: Steichen, Stieglitz, Strand,
Cartier-Bresson and Penn.
RJ: Speaking of Balthus, you have had the opportunity
to photograph him, and have also photographed his widow and daughter.
Being that you admired his work growing up, this must have been an
exciting opportunity for you. Are there any interesting stories or
thoughts you have about your meeting with him?
DW: I was very excited to meet Balthus!
When we sat with him in his beautiful 16th Century home in Switzerland,
I felt that somehow a whole generation of great and unique artists
of the 20th Century were sitting right there in front of me, all represented
by Balthus. He was the last of those men who had changed the world
with their art. He was clearly one of the bravest and strongest men
of that generation-so proud and elegant, with such a sense of dignity,
but also of humor.
His entire behavior, his old-fashioned way of speaking in many languages-he
switched easily from French to German to Italian-his obvious education,
his way of dressing-that night he wore an old Japanese kimono-one
could catch a glimpse of his whole life in an instant.
To meet Balthus was like reaching way into the past-almost to the
19th Century. It was as if through him, we could even encounter the
spirit of Rainer Maria Rilke, whom Balthus had known as a little boy.
[Balthus'] first set of drawings was inspired by Rilke. [Rilke, in
turn,] apparently helped publish those drawings, [which were made
when Balthus was] a 13-year-old.
The way Balthus lived with his wife, Setsuko, and his daughter, Harumi,
was a curious and utterly unique mixture of a distant past and a modern
lifestyle. Harumi addressed her parents in a very formal way, and
even husband and wife spoke to each other in the formal "vous",
the way you address authorities or royalty.
On the other hand, he surprised me by telling us what kind of movies
he liked-and he seemed to enjoy horror movies the most. He also had
this openness to a Rock 'N' Roll star, like Bono, whom he adored and
with whom he had become good friends.
RJ: Tell me about your background
in filmmaking.
DW: When I was 15 years old, I became
interested in filmmaking. Through a friend, I even had the chance
to spend some time in editing rooms and [to learn] that work a bit.
Around that time, I dreamt of being able to work in the movies one
day [although I was] not yet sure in what type of field.
[Being] "behind the camera" was all I knew. I concentrated
on the photographic image. I worked at a lab and as an assistant camerawoman.
I also shot several student films as Director of Photography.
After High School, I studied filmmaking at the Freie Universität
in Berlin, because of my initial fascination with the editing process.
Then I moved to Stuttgart and continued my studies at a theatre school,
only to realize that film was my main interest, after all. When I
came back to Berlin in 1989 I concentrated on cinematography.
I was a camera assistant for years and went to several master classes
about lighting and operating. I also worked as a cinematographer on
several TV and student movies.
RJ: How then did photography emerge as your primary
means of artistic expression?
DW: My whole life changed when I
met Wim. That was on Faraway, So Close!, [a film] on which I worked
as camera assistant. There was no time whatsoever to fall in love
during the shoot and it didn't cross my mind or his either. But when
the film was over, we both knew we would miss something…
To make a long story short, we married half a year later. I started
to travel with Wim wherever he went-and I tell you, he travels a lot!
After understanding the "alphabet" of that new task of being
his wife, I took my camera with me on all our trips. I learned more
about the difference between the moving image and the still photograph-and
loved the freedom I had within the new medium. But [it wasn't until]
a number of years later that I realized that all these images had
a common subject-[they] expressed a longing or a state of mind, something
deep inside of me.
We lead a very busy life and [are often] with all kinds of people,
in all sorts of places. Photography was such a wonderful tool to step
out and observe. I was mainly drawn in by the light, by the mood of
people's solitary moments and their gestures within that. I found
that I was both articulating what I saw and what I was longing for
myself. Very blandly, I would call that: The longing to be loved.
That is the theme that I am always touched by and that I always try
to capture. I started to focus on this as the impulse of my photography
and follow it more consciously, wherever we go.
RJ: Are you still involved in filmmaking?
DW: For a few years now I have strictly
concentrated on photography. With photography, I have a creative language
within the tight schedule and the many demands of Wim's work.
There are some exceptions, though. When Wim does documentaries (like
The Buena Vista Social Club and The Soul of a Man) I occasionally
participate as a camerawoman again. But those remain exceptions. Whenever
I can choose between photography and cinematography, I choose photography.
I cannot do both at the same time. I know, because I tried and failed
miserably.
RJ: You mentioned learning about the difference
between the moving and still image. Having had experience as a filmmaker
(and also the opportunity to spend time on Wim's sets) you've been
able, not only to participate in movie making, but to also observe
the cinematic process. Are there specific techniques that you've learned
from these experiences that you have applied to your (still) photography?
DW: What I have learned from Wim's
filmmaking, more than anything, is: The necessity to let go. I cannot
force anything. If I let the photograph be given to me, then my work
is fruitful. If I try hard to take a good picture, then I find nothing
on the proof sheet later.
Wim has a gift of trusting in the most devastating moments, when everything
seems to break down. He focuses on the elements that present themselves,
in the course of the work. He doesn't insist on imposing his own predetermined
choices. This "technique", if you could call it that, is
what I have learned most from him. I have also learned not to question
myself during the process. Just keep concentrating on your task and
listening to your source of inspiration, whether you call it God or
Love-and it will not leave you and will lead you. I learned to have
faith within the work.
RJ: There's the idea that we are naturally drawn
to photograph what we know best, and what interests us most deeply…
DW: I am interested in what I call
"the attitude of the heart." We hear God speak to us, or
we hear our conscience or an inner voice talk to us-through the heart.
Everything a person does depends on [their own] way of relating to
that voice. And that "attitude" becomes very visible. If
we fill whatever we do with love, it will show, in every gesture-in
an ordinary everyday occupation just as [much] as in "important
work".
RJ: What do you think draws you to photograph people,
particularly women? Who you seem to photograph most often?
DW: I am drawn more to women, first
of all, because they are more familiar to me than men and I am more
at ease myself with them. Also, because women are generally more "expressive"
and reveal more what is going on inside them. [They do this] through
gestures and the way they behave, but also, for instance, through
the way they dress. Men have a different code. They are more secretive.
It is definitely more challenging for me to capture that in an image.
RJ: How would you describe your approach to your
subjects when you photograph them?
DW: First of all, I always like,
or even love, the person I photograph, at least to some extent-I have
no interest or talent for photographing people I don't respect. I
must have an interest in their attitude and approach towards life,
from the beginning. I am looking for the "gestures of grace"
of a person.
RJ: Much of your portrait work observes artists
at work-deeply involved in the creation of their work. What most fascinates
you about artistic process?
DW: In the artistic process, people
tend to forget about themselves. Those are the moments I am most interested
in-when people are oblivious of themselves (and me). [At times when]
their work involves and absorbs them completely. I find the absence
of self or vanity strikingly beautiful most of the time. I am drawn
to this kind of beauty. It reveals something of the innocence and
vulnerability everybody had as a child. Children are not yet full
of themselves. I am looking for that aspect in grown-up people. I
am looking for the part in a person's soul that knows it is loved
and therefore trusts and lets go and has faith.
RJ: Say someone was to turn the tables and observe
you at work as a photographer, what would they see?
DW: I guess sometimes they would
see a whirlwind on socks, a racing reporter, sometimes an overly excited
person who might just miss some beautiful shots. I have a hard time
forgetting myself when I am observed… (I guess I am taking pictures
of what I am longing for!)
At other times they might observe a photographer, very concentrated
and eager to catch the light and a person's gestures exactly…
It completely possesses me, at times, when I get excited about a person,
a situation, or the light.
RJ: What are some of the other aspects of the photographic
process that you like the most?
DW: There are two moments I cherish
the most: The first is, when I just observe, in an environment that
I like a lot-when I feel close to the people in front of my lens and
when the light is good. Secondly, being in the darkroom and seeing
the picture emerge in the developer tray. Each time I feel that this
is a true miracle.
RJ: What aspects do you find the most challenging
or difficult?
DW: First of all, I find it difficult
to discover the "artful" moment in a "documentary"
working environment. When I cannot wait for the good light. When I
cannot really chose my angle carefully.
I also find it very challenging [to try to work] when there are other
photographers around. I get terribly competitive, although that is
really not my nature. [Being in] such a frame of mind is deadly for
the quality of the pictures.
RJ: How would you characterize the nature of the
artistic/creative aspects of your relationship with Wim?
DW: Wim is my husband as well as
my best friend and I respect him thoroughly as a filmmaker and photographer.
So I trust him and his judgment more then anybody else's. Not that
I always go with what he says, but he is the first one who sees an
image I am excited about. He is the first who knows when I am devastated
because I feel I have shot "nothing good"…
It works the same way the other way round as well. Although during
the shooting of a movie, I refrain from giving my opinion on his work,
even though I am there all the time. It would be [as if] a painter
was constantly getting positive or negative reactions for every brush-stroke
he does. I leave Wim alone, until he invites me to watch something.
The beauty of my work, is that I see the entire atmosphere and all
conditions from another angle. We can show our work to each other
with a deep understanding of the situation it has grown in, yet with
some distance.
As Wim's work is his life, there is no line between "private"
and "professional". It all is one; you can't separate one
from the other. You wouldn't want to lead such a life alone, but you
also do not want to have a wife at your side that is nonstop following
"her own" interests.
Of course, my work is possible [only] if I have some "air"
within the task of being the wife to this man. That goes without saying.
But then, our priority is to be there for each other and to take care
of each other.
RJ: How would you describe the atmosphere and/or
your process when photographing on the sets of Wim's movies?
DW: When I take pictures on the
set, its atmosphere and its light carry a huge influence on my photography-even
if I am interested in very different issues than what the movie itself
might be focusing on. I find moments that might have to do with the
making of that film, but not necessarily with the story it is telling.
On the set, I have the freedom to watch and to disappear behind my
camera. I do not tell people what they should do and how they should
move. I am not a director. I am an observer. I cherish the moments,
when people forget about themselves and me. The film set is a perfect
environment for that. No one pays attention to me anymore, after the
first three days of me being there with my lens.
RJ: I imagine with the types of photography you
do, your personality plays a role in how you approach your subjects.
What aspects of your personality do you feel assist you in working
with the people you photograph? What aspects may work against you?
DW: My personality helps me with
this approach, for I admire people easily and am very quick [to become]
excited about a person. I often have an "inner adoration"
for them [which] helps me.
On the other side, I'm very impatient. When things do not work out
right away, I lose interest easily, or even drop all hope in the project
of photographing that person. My impatience definitely works against
me. Sometimes I am not very precise. [Sometimes] I observe someone
at work and something is just not good enough, [whether it be] the
light, or the angle, or the atmosphere. I [may] know [that to get
the image that I want] I need to stay much longer at that place with
that person, or have to come back another time. [But] I still say
out of shyness: "It will work out somehow, it'll be fine…"
and then of course it doesn't… It is all one long learning process.
RJ: What does Wim's work mean to you and how has
it influenced you as an artist?
DW: Wim's work means the world to
me. I had seen all of his movies, except Hammett and a TV series he
had worked on in the Seventies, before I met him. I saw Wings of Desire
a dozen times before I decided I would work "in the movies".
His films have changed and influenced my life in many ways and only
for the better.
All of his movies provoke hope and reveal a profound love and understanding
for the human being. They show me how much respect one can have for
people's lives and stories. [Also, when working on location] Wim treats
[these places] with an attitude of openness and awe, without being
in your face.
The tenderness that comes out of his imagery has encouraged me to
see the world in a more loving way.
Wim has influenced my career as a photographer immensely. I could
even say that I am a photographer now because of him. He encouraged
me over and over again, when I was willing to give up, to let go of
everything. On my own, I would not have had the courage and the persistence
to go that path all the way.
RJ: Which of Wim's movies would you consider your
favorite?
DW: That is a tough question.
His early movies, Alice in the Cities, Paris, Texas, or Wings of Desire,
had a strong and beautiful impact on my life and therefore I love
them. They gave me a lot and they still do. They were not just "entertainment",
like many of the other films [which] I liked as well. They were different.
I remember them as something important in my life. They changed my
attitude towards people and places.
I remember seeing a retrospective of Wim's movies in the Eighties
and asking myself: Why do I like them so much? Because of the stories?
The images? The atmosphere? What was it? I could not figure it out,
until I realized-I, as the audience, was respected and even invited
to participate in these movies. I was able to be a part of them. I
felt completely accepted as a human being. It gave me the impression
of freedom and safety at the same time. That might sound weird, but
that was the key for my loving his films.
I love his documentaries as well. Notebook on Cities and Clothes touched
me especially, for it opened up the world of fashion in the most fascinating
way. His new movie on the Blues, The Soul of a Man is a revelation
for all who love Rock 'N' Roll and its roots… I could go on and
on about each and every movie.
RJ: What would you say your work means to Wim?
DW: You really would have to ask
him, not me. So I passed your question on, and here is what he said
"Wimself": "With Donata taking pictures in black and
white, almost exclusively of people, and me photographing strictly
in color, almost exclusively places, we are never in each other's
way, and certainly not competitive. I look at her work in complete
awe, especially if we were together in the same place. Just take her
pictures in Havana, while we shot Buena Vista Social Club! I can't
believe how deep she got into these characters, into these places,
and how different it is from what we achieved with the film. I can
only marvel at her work, and how much she has been improving as a
photographer. She has such a unique and loving eye! I deserve no credit
for it whatsoever, no matter what she might tell you. She has found
it on her own."
RJ: Wim makes the distinction that you shoot primarily
people and in black and white, something I have noticed when looking
through your books like The Heart Is A Sleeping Beauty and Buena Vista
Social Club, (both collaborative projects)-identifying who shot the
photograph is most easily (initially) recognized by whether it's in
color or in black and white.
What draws you to work primarily in black and white? Are there certain
attributes or characteristics of black and white photography that
draw you to it, as opposed to color?
DW: First of all, I might work with
color in the future. With black and white images, though, my attention
is, more than anything else, drawn towards shapes, light and shadow-the
texture of a place, the gestures and the mood of a person. Black and
white brings a certain abstraction to what I see in front of me, which
helps me concentrate on the essential, on the "soul" of
the person or the place in front of me.
At the same time, I am aware of the wide field of possibilities of
color images. I still need some time to find a way to work with color
that really suits me. I have something specific in mind, but have
not gotten to a result that really satisfies me. Until then, I will
continue to concentrate on black and white images.
RJ: In summary, what would you say photography
given to your life?
DW: Photography has given me the
language to express what is inside of me, before I even understand
it with my head.
It has also taught me what it means to take responsibility for what
I do, no matter what others think or say about it.
It has revealed to me the priority in my life, which is faith in a
God who loves us incredibly.
Donata Wenders
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